Navigating mental health in business - Pat Whitson and Charlotte White

Navigating mental health in marketing - Pat Whitson and Charlotte White transcript

Charlotte White
Hello everyone and welcome to the Scaramanga podcast. I'm Charlotte, part of the social media team here at Scaramanga Marketing.

Today I'm joined by Pat Whitson, who is actually my grandma, but she's also a practicing therapist and she's got a massive following on social. She's got 100,000 followers across TikTok and Instagram and 10 million views in the last year, which is really commendable.

So welcome, Pat!

Pat Whitson
Thank you for inviting me, Charlotte, because I've never done a podcast before, so that's really exciting. And as far as being here, just thank you!

Charlotte White
Oh, of course. Well, we've been talking about doing it together for a while, haven't we?

Can you just tell us a little bit about your job and also what you do on social media that has led to you having such a big following?

Pat Whitson
Okay.

Well, first of all, with my work, I trained as a hypnotherapist back in about 1997, but before that I did quite a lot of what is now called life coaching. So it's like, the power of positive thinking. So that's been really my main thing, but I've added to it CBT, NLP and things like that.

So what happens is I have clients, but I also teach it. And yes, social media is really helpful because it's not so much that you're trying to teach people, it's just the contact, I think, and people get to know you.

And I just love doing it because it gives me a feel good feeling. You know?

Charlotte White
Yeah, because that's why we originally started it as well, wasn't it?

Pat Whitson
Back in July.

Charlotte White
Yeah, back in July 2023, because we wanted to get you a few more clients. And that's why we started it together.

But for people who don't know the videos you share, what kind of things do you talk about in those videos?

Pat Whitson
Yes, I talk about a lot to do with people suffering from overwhelm, mental health issues. They're little tips really that will help them through their day.

It might be something to do with changing their thoughts. It might be some mindfulness exercises, but they're always outside because I do believe that we need to go out more. And it's usually trees there because I love trees.

Charlotte White
You have dogs as well, don't you?

Pat Whitson
I do.

Charlotte White
So normally, it's when you're walking the dogs that you film videos.

Pat Whitson
Yes, I find a quiet space and then I just chat.

So I do it fairly spontaneously. But because I've been teaching quite a long time, I suppose some of the little tips... I do sometimes some actual, I wouldn't call it therapy, more ideas that they could use on TikTok and Instagram. So they can then go back to it.

Charlotte White
Yeah.

Well, I think that leads us nicely on to the topic of the podcast today and why I invited you in. Because I thought it would be really interesting to sit down with you and talk about mental health, particularly in marketing.

But I think also this episode could be relatable to people in sort of any kind of job; corporate, service, industry.

I think it could help a lot of people. So that's why I wanted to sit down today.

So we're going to be, I guess, focusing more on... well, because we're focusing more on marketing, we're going to be focusing on things like imposter syndrome and perfectionism.

But my first question for you was going to be, have you had patients who have worked in marketing in particular in the past? And if you have, what sort of issues have they dealt with, maybe perhaps it is imposter syndrome, but maybe there's other things too?

Pat Whitson
Yes, a lot of anxiety, particularly, especially when they are thinking they're putting themselves in front of people.

Because I myself suffered from not being able to speak in public at all. I would freeze, you know, I would sweat, my voice would come out shaky. So I sort of understand really what those people are going through.

And I think the mental health issues and imposter syndrome actually connect together because beneath the imposter syndrome, I think is negative beliefs about themselves.

So they think they're not good enough, or perhaps they feel that everybody else is better than them, or perhaps they feel that, you know, "why have I been given this particular job, because I'm not capable of doing it!"

But I tell them, especially on TikTok and Instagram, use the words "I can", because it's like a part of you chats away and puts you down if you're not careful.

It could be the perfectionist that says, "well, you know, who makes you what makes you think that you could do this? That's certainly not good enough.
You've got to you've got to raise your standards a bit!"

You know, or the critic bit that says, "you know, that definitely is not good enough." It's like a voice in your head. And I think a lot of people can relate to that.

So in some of the videos, what I do is I give them some tips to overcome that. So imposter syndrome actually causes a lot of these symptoms because it causes anxiety. It causes, if you like, people to go into fight or flight. And of course, that causes you not to focus properly. So that's going to affect your work, you know. So if you're constantly in fight or flight, then that's not going to be good for anyone.

So imposter syndrome is a new word for me, really, because in the past, there wasn't such a thing called imposter syndrome. But now it's if you like, it is more of the 'in' word.

But I think beneath that becomes the thought that you shouldn't be here or you're in the wrong place or I can't cope. You're going into overwhelm, you know.

Charlotte White
I think it's more like, I guess you're saying it's quite a new word for you. I think what it really boils down to is like feeling insecure. I think maybe if the word imposter syndrome weren't around, then we'd probably relate it to insecurity,

Pat Whitson
Insecurity, lack of confidence and actually not being able to perform at your best.

Charlotte White
Yeah, because I feel like I experience this a bit sometimes too, not feeling like maybe I know enough or that I'm qualified enough, even though I know I am. Sometimes it's hard to feel like you actually are and have that belief in yourself. So sometimes, yeah, it can have a knock on effect, can't it? Because then when you're doing work, you don't have that confidence to try new things maybe or trust your gut.

Pat Whitson
Or you avoid doing things because you think you're not going to get it right.

Charlotte White
Yeah, exactly.

Pat Whitson
And there's avoidance sometimes, so sometimes you have to make yourself do things. So I always tell people, use the word 'I can'. 'I choose to'. And push away some of those doubts that you've got, you know. And we've got quite a few tips as well that I could give people, you know.

Charlotte White
Yeah, well, that's perfect because that's what we were going to move on to.

So we were going to talk about some tips that people can use to help imposter syndrome or insecurity, not feeling good enough, anything like that. Because we spoke about this on the phone yesterday.

Pat Whitson
We did.

Charlotte White
Coming up with some tips. So we'll talk through them now. But I'll let Pat talk through them now because I'm not the qualified one in this conversation.

But yeah, do you want to talk us through some of those tips that we were discussing yesterday?

Pat Whitson
Yes, I will, because some of these have helped me. And a lot of people, when they are faced with doing something that's a bit out of their comfort zone, that's when they start to freeze.

So I suggest that they choose something quick that they could use, like it's called an anchor. So you touch something like a thumb and finger, you could touch a watch or something as you think about something that you did feel confident about.

So if I perhaps asked you, "is there a time that you felt confident about something?" It doesn't have to be anything to do with work. Then what I would do, I would say, right, I want you to imagine this confident, whatever it was that you did or achieved and make it even bigger and brighter and all things going around.

And as you just do that, you touch that and you practice that a couple of times at least, so that when you're faced with perhaps doing a presentation or doing a social media video, you know, for your company or something like that, that very surreptitiously, you can do that, you see.

And it will bring back that memory, that state of mind that gives you the confidence.

Charlotte White
Like a trigger, I guess.

Pat Whitson
It's a trigger.

Charlotte White
A positive trigger.

Pat Whitson
Yes, that's right. Or you could give yourself a word as a trigger . It could be a word like comfort, could be a word like easy, something like that. So you're in that right zone.

In fact, it was only over this last week, I had someone that came and he actually used two anchors because there were two states he wanted to be in. So he used two different anchors, one is what he called being in the Zen zone. That was his word. And so we looked at what the Zen was for him and we did a different finger for the Zen zone.

And we did this for his confident one. Yeah.

Charlotte White
Oh, interesting.

Pat Whitson
So therefore just choose the state of mind that you want to enhance, I suppose is the word. So if you want to feel calmer, then you think of yourself perhaps a nice memory on a beach somewhere and the sound of the waves and everything's chilled out and you could anchor that in.

So especially at the end of work or, you know, sometimes people find it hard to wind down, don't they?

After they've been trying to work really hard. So that would be useful as well.

So those are anchors.

Charlotte White
Okay.

Pat Whitson
All right.

Charlotte White
That's a good one. Yeah. I'm going to use that myself.

Pat Whitson
Good. And the one of the other ones, and I mentioned a bit of it before, was the perfectionist part of us.

Charlotte White
Yeah, we were talking about this because I was saying to you that I suffer from this a lot. Wanting everything to be the very, very best it can be like completely perfect, no mistakes. And it leads to then for me, when I make a mistake, it's like the end of the world. Like I can't look myself in the eye or look myself in the mirror because I made one mistake, so,,,

Pat Whitson
That's right.

Charlotte White
Yeah, so you were telling me some really good tips to deal with that actually.

Pat Whitson
Yeah. So one of them is if you could imagine that there's just a part of you that is the perfectionist part, and you know, its sort of perhaps on your shoulder or in the next chair to you here, in fact, you could even move to it.

Charlotte White
Right.

Pat Whitson
And so you then you realise how impossible this perfectionist part is because what's happening is that it's giving you unachievable goals. You know, it's one of those things, it's almost impossible to be perfect, isn't it?

Charlotte White
It's almost like imagining, I guess, when you say that, for me, it's like imagining if I was speaking to another person who was saying the things to me that I say to myself, and I know that I would think "that is so ridiculous that they're saying that to me and it's so unachievable and so hard on me."

Pat Whitson
So you challenge the thought.

Charlotte White
Yeah.

Pat Whitson
So by listening to that perfectionist part, what you're doing, that perfectionist part has been given this that has to be right. So the best thing to do is to challenge the thoughts that that perfectionist part gives you exactly like that.

Charlotte White
Yeah.

Pat Whitson
And as you said, your best friend wouldn't tell you that, you know, that was awful.

Charlotte White 
Hopefully not!

Pat Whitson
I mean they would tell you the truth, but they wouldn't expect it to be absolutely, impossibly correct.

Charlotte White 
No. And I think even if it's like, you know, I'm beating myself up for making a mistake, I don't think anyone else would be like, "yeah, that is unacceptable that you made a mistake. How dare you?"

Pat Whitson
This part does, this perfectionist part does.

Charlotte White
It's like a little devil on your shoulder, isn't it? I mean, I know like anybody else would just be like, "OK, it's fine."

Pat Whitson
And what I've noticed and maybe some of the other people might notice, I avoid doing things in case it's not good enough because of the imposter.

So I might leave it to the last moment and then there's not time to make it perfect. And a lot of people relate to that.

Charlotte White
It's like procrastination, isn't it? How would you deal with that?

Pat Whitson
Again, it's really being aware that there is that part of you and trying to get that part of you on your side.

So if you've got a mediator part that says, "well, that's a bit unreasonable, you know." So you know, I think we've all got these different aspects of ourselves. So it would be a part that would say, "well, let's just..." in order to for her to do the job.

And that's what you want to do, because usually these parts of us have good intentions for us that they're not bad parts. They're just parts that are trying to get you to be as good as you can, basically. But they're overdoing it because they're being either harsh, critical.

So it's actually getting a mediator part to just suggest that everything will work much better if you just enjoy doing it.

Charlotte White
Yeah. And if you sort of like work with it as opposed to like battling everything.

Pat Whitson
Yeah And its interesting as I was chatting into someone, well, this particular person I said in the week and I said, even with the Olympics that are on at the moment, have been on, yeah, that a lot of the people that have won have actually said they won because they really enjoyed doing it rather than putting pressure on themselves.

Charlotte White
That's true. And I know I was actually watching an interview with, do you know Simone Biles? She's an American gymnast, but she won gold on the Olympics.

Pat Whitson
Oh, yes, that's right.

Charlotte White
Yes. And she was doing an interview and saying how she had a therapy session like an hour before she went on to win that gold medal, which I think, you bringing it up, it perfectly ties in because it shows how important it is to get those parts of you in check and just sort of relax and enjoy as opposed to...

Pat Whitson
Because I think we're all capable of doing things, but at the end of the day, the person that wins or the person that achieves something, it's the mindset that they have. Yes, that gives them that little bit extra. You know?

Charlotte White
So interesting. I'm learning so much. I wish I could take notes. (Laughter) I'll listen to this back for sure.

Pat Whitson
OK. And then I think the use of affirmations. Do you know what an affirmation is?

Charlotte White
Well, I do from your videos, but could you explain it for someone who maybe perhaps doesn't know?

Pat Whitson
So if you have a thought that you're not good enough or these things come into your mind and these things float into, you mind that are unhelpful thoughts, then what you need to do is to change them into something more positive.

So, I am good enough. I am OK. I'm able to do this. I am effective in what I produce. So that after a while, a part of you is listening to that because you're all these negative things come from your inner mind, your subconscious mind, and it's like a program, if you like, in your subconscious mind.

However, it isn't that part isn't... well. our minds aren't always logical. So, you can create another program that says I am good enough and what I do is fine and it is acceptable. I am able to do this. I have a right. You know, these sort of things.

So after a while, by keep saying this affirmation to yourself, and you can clean your teeth and look yourself in the mirror and say the affirmation as you day it.

So say it to yourself several times in the day. So an affirmation is a positive statement you say about yourself, even though you don't quite believe it after a while, you will.

Charlotte White
Yeah, it's like training your brain, isn't it? And we were talking about as well, then being able to sort of, as you're training your brain, using affirmations, using perhaps anchors and challenging negative thoughts, sort of assessing yourself over time and seeing how that is having an impact and whether you need to potentially change something in order to assess it.

Pat Whitson
Assess it. What I say to people is, just establish where you are now, how it's affecting your life and then just assess it, measure it so you can look back and keep a journal if you like.

Charlotte White
Yeah, that's a good idea.

Pat Whitson
Or give yourself some little mini goals, you know, because sometimes when we have a goal or we're given a project to do, sometimes in our mind, it seems enormous.

So you know, by just assessing as you go and doing it in smaller steps is useful. And then thinking, "oh, I did that. Oh, I can give myself a pat on the back." Literally, because "I did this or did that. That's working for me."

Charlotte White
I suppose it's like it's like... you're trying to cross, you're trying to go from A to B, like maybe sort of try and cross a river if you like. But rather than trying to just jump straight over it and potentially like landing yourself in water, it's like you're setting stepping stones for yourself in order to get to the end.

Pat Whitson
And then you can look and see how far you've come.

Charlotte White
Yeah.

Pat Whitson
Or you can think, "yes, I'm halfway there". Even if you just achieve, say, five percent each time you do something, it's going to make a difference.

Charlotte White
Yeah. And it's five percent more than you would, you know, if you hadn't done it.

Pat Whitson
Yeah.

Charlotte White
Yeah, exactly. Five percent more than if you wouldn't have done it. That's what I was trying to say!

Pat Whitson
That's right. Yeah. So just do it.

Charlotte White
Yeah.

Pat Whitson
Because by doing it, you'll give yourself confidence and you get this imposter syndrome will just sort of begin to melt away. Because—

Charlotte White
Do you—? Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.

I was going to ask, do you think it's something that ever that you can ever truly get rid of or do you think it's more like you sort of manage it over time?

Pat Whitson
I think it could be useful if it was just made more realistic.

Charlotte White
So sort of changing it, fine tuning it?

Pat Whitson
Fine tune it. Because it may be that you could change it into a part that says, well, "yes, you're doing very well, but perhaps you could be even better if you learn this or you ask somebody for help to do this." So you could change it into a part that might encourage you rather than put you down.

Charlotte White
Yeah. Interesting

Pat Whitson
Yeah. That's just an idea that I had. And of course, you don't have to do everything yourself, you see!

Charlotte White
Yeah, that's a good point.

Pat Whitson
Yes, you can ask for help.

Charlotte White
I think that's a good point for people, especially like me, you know, who work in a team of people. And I think for people who work in marketing, you're going to most likely be working within a team, perhaps even if you're freelance. So that is a good reminder, actually, because I think sometimes we try to take on a lot.

Pat Whitson
You don't have to absolutely excel in everything. Each one that makes the team has their own special attribute that they bring to the whole, you see.

Charlotte White
Yeah. (Laughter) I'm laughing because that is so me. I always think to myself, "yeah, people can be good at some things more than they are at others. But myself, I have to be great at everything all the time!"

Pat Whitson
Well, of course.

Charlotte White
Oh, well, that's brilliant. I think that brings us maybe to a natural close, do you reckon? Unless you had any final words.

Pat Whitson
Yes, I think just remind yourself of what challenges you've overcome, maybe is good. And then put that success down. So you're giving yourself a little tick.

And what particular successes? So giving yourself a reminder of that.

Charlotte White
I think one of my favourite things you said today, like closing off from my end as well, is just changing the 'I can't's' to 'I can'.

Pat Whitson. 
Yeah.

Charlotte White
And saying to yourself, I'm choosing to do this instead of putting something off. I'm choosing to do this and I'm choosing to excel at this.

Pat Whitson
Do you know your great grandad used to tell me, my granddad, he said there's no such word as can't!

Charlotte White
Oh, really?

Pat Whitson
There you go.

Charlotte White
Maybe that's where I've heard that from before.

Pat Whitson
Yeah, maybe.

Charlotte White
Oh, well, thank you for coming on the podcast today.

Pat Whitson
Thank you.

Charlotte White
I've found it so interesting, but I find it interesting every time I speak to Pat.
So give her a follow on social if you don't already.

She's @mindconnections on TikTok and on Instagram, she's @mindconnectionskent, all one word.

And make sure to follow us as well. We do a monthly podcast where we talk about all things marketing, such a wide range of things we talk about— accessibility, social media marketing, digital marketing, everything.

So give us a follow and we look forward to hopefully seeing you in the next episode!